123

[CID]

Hello,
As a present I received a 123-ignition. http://www.123ignition.nl/
What a relieve. A programmable ignition.
Only disadvantage is that the max pre-ignition of the vacuum is 20°. But this can compensated.
But it can run 2 maps to be switched. Can use 1 in cold condition if necessary.

Currently I've set-up 1 map which runs already great.
But I was wondering if someone has also 123ignition or has some maps to compare and share?

I have set-up as standard and measured the vacuum ignition curve.

Vacuum curve
InHg Bar Advance ° Recalc
2 0,072 93
3 0,106 90
4 0,149 86
5 0,171 83
6 0,202 80
7 0,242 76
8 0,272 73

Rpm curve
Rpm Adv°
1000 0
1600 4,8
2200 9,6
2800 14,4
3000 16


Greetz Curt

[Pjr]

Hi, i cant answer your question, but please do update us as you progress. i have seen these distributors and they do seem interesting.
Phil

[don.hasi]

i am also interested. Please report frequently any news

[CID]

Hello,

Sorry for long absence, little busy now.

Well the 123 works fine.
I still have this hasitation at low revs +-2000. Same as with the AB14
So would like to know what I can change to the ignition curve to improve?
And not to stress the engine to much?
Does someone has some suggestions?

I did not use the switch for cold map. Not necessary at the moment.

I still have to fix the exhaust to get reliable AFR values to set up fuel mixture and accelerator setting. To much external air entering. So thats why I did not play around a lot yet...

Regards Curt

[Lotus-e-Clan]

Could you work-out the full 'mechanical' advance curve in crank degrees rather than distributor degrees and publish on here?

If I try to interpret your figures assuming a static setting of 10 degrees (which you haven't included) which must be added to the curve I get:

Rpm __DistAdv°____Crank deg___ OR is it?
Stat_______ _____ 10___________10
1000 ____ 0.0_____10.0 _________10.0
1600 ____ 4,8_____ 19.6 _________14.8
2200 ____ 9,6___ __ 29.2 ________19.2
2800 ____ 14,4 ____ 38.8_________24.4
3000 ____ 16.0 ____ 42.0_________26.0

..the middle column does not make sense - it's far too advanced!

If I add your max 20 degs of vacuum the MAX part-throttle advance looks like this
Stat_____ 10___________10______
1000 ____ 0.0 _________10.0_____
1600 ____ 4,8__________14.8____34.8
2200 ____ 9,6__________19.2____39.2
2800 ____ 14,4 _________24.4____44.4
3000 ____ 16.0 ________26.0 _____46.0

So around 2000 rpm the advance is likely to be anywhere between 17 - 37 degs depending on vacuum at that particular throttle opening. It would be useful if you could fit a temporary vacuum gauge for use on the road to get a vacuum reading at the point the hesitation occurs. AFR readings would also be very useful.

Maybe the exhaust manifold air leaks are impacting on vacuum and hesitation too?

[tonypoll]

The hesitation may be due to the idle jets. Lotus used the 55 to meet emission requirements, but is a well known cause of hesitation problems on anything but a brand new engine with perfect carbs and ignition. Replacing with 58 idle jets should remove any slight hesitation in the 2,500 - 2,800 rpm range.

[CID]

Hello,

Something went wrong during copying.

For the vacuum I measured this.
So this is just the advance when hanging a vacuum pump with meter on the vacuum unit.
So for each advance point I measured the pressure.(InHg+Bar)

InHg Bar Advance °
2___0,07______2
3___0,10______6
4___0,14______9
5___0,17_____12
6___0,20_____15
7___0,24_____19
8___0,27_____22

I don't know if this curve is correct. Because I could only measure it static?
Maybe dynamically it is different? Vacuum advance could have some delay compared with the electronic version of the 123?

For the mechanic advance the values are indeed without static.

Rpm Adv° Total Adv°
1000____0_____ 10
1600____4,8____14,8
2200____9,8____19,6
2800____14,4___24,4
3000____16_____26

Hope this is clearer.

Yes you are right, I should first solve the leaks.

Also good tip about the idle jet...
I guest the accelerator settings could also be wrong. An AFR could help here to.

About the advance measurement: On the 123 computer Dash you can read the vacuum advance.
So some work to do first and thanks for input...

Greetz Curt

[Pjr]

I have just fitted a 123 tune + with bluettoth which is quite cool as I can play with the mapping as I drive.

This is what Leen Apk (Dutch supplier) pre-programmed for me and the engine runs nicely with it. Static at 1000rpm is 10 btdc

Rpm. Degrees crankshaft
1000 0
1400. 7
2300. 14.6
3500. 23.4
5000. 29
8000. 29

You can use the bluetooth link to a phone or ipad to advance or retard the whole curve 1 degree ar a time. I seem to be able to add quite a few degrees without any pinking (using 99ron tesco momentum).

I have looked at data including the original Lotus data and Tony Polls and im now unsure which way to go. If I read Tonys data correctly, his car has lots of advance in the lower end but less at the top end.

The Lotus curve has less advance than the Leen apk curve until just before 3000 rpm where it then goes more quickly to max advance.

CIDs curve seems to be almost identical to the Lotus curve.

Id be very interested in any others peoples data.

I should just end by saying that the 123 looks to be very well made with very substantial wires etc. It it quick and easy to fit and now the idle is very smooth and even, the hesitation low down is banished and overall she just drives in a much more pleasant an flexible way.

Phil

[Pjr]

Just been out for a blast up the road and the car is fabulous.

I have adjusted the curve to 25 degrees at 3500 which is halfway between what was preprogrammed and the lotus curve (28 degress for lotus IIrC) but everything above 3k is just smooth and thrusty. Below about 2.5k the pickup is smooth but there is certainly a noticable pickup at about 2.5k.

The exhaust still pops a bit on overrun which might change as i play with the Map settings or if i increase the advance to 28 at 3500. Not sure - just got to keep refining.

The idle is very solid and i checked the timing on the strobe and the timing mark was very consistent.

It may not give the user as much tuning potential as a crank fired system, but its pretty good imho for about £280 delivered (i did buy it last week before the pound was Brexitted). I also bought a Bosch Blue coil as recommended, but got that here for £23.

My old distributor might have vern knackered, but this is a transformational change.

[Pjr]

Ok, so as not to mislead anyone, it seems that the curve Leen provided was generic (but was still a big improvement). I have had a few email exchanges about how best to tailor tge curve and also looked at the Lotus WSM and what Aldon previous set the car to. As a result I have tried this set up this morning and it goes really well.

Static is 10 degres so the following is additional

1k.............1 (i noticed that Aldon set the static to 11 degrees, so this is replicate that)
1.4k......... 5
2.3k..........11
3k.............17
3.5k..........29 (again, aldon set the max to 29 degrees and the WSM suggests 28)
6.5k..........29
8k.............29

Leen suggested that i could go to 32 degrees above 3000 rpm but the lower point at 3000 seems to give a nice torquey response and then i jump up at 3500. Its not too far from the Lotus curve really.

Obviously a rolling road would improve matters further, but seat of the pants tuning is a fun way to spend a Sunday morning and in case i hadnt quite conveyed my feelings...this is a great bit of kit!

[explore_australia]

HI

Exactly which part numbers did you buy?
They have a few different ones available.

Regards John

[Pjr]

Hi John,

I bought the 123Tune+ with bluetooth for 4 cylinder Lucas distributor cars. It was €369 If i recall from LeenAPK (aka 123ignitionshop) in Holland. 4-r-v-g i think it was.

My only warning is that the 123tune app will download onto my wife and childrens' ipad, but not mine. You may wish to try downloading the app before you think about buying one. My wife is going nuts because I keep disappearing down the road to try new tweaks with her ipad in the car....

The non-bluetooth tune version can store two maps whereas the bluetooth version has only one. However, i thought one map was enough and you can bump the whole map up or down a few degrees easily on the move (e.g. If you have to use low octane fuel). Such whole map adjustments are not saved - you have to manually change the underlying map if you want a permanent change. Yoi can only tweak the underlying map when the engine is not running.

Since I posted my last data, I have added more advance lower down so the jump in advance is less abrupt at Leens suggestion. It is definitely more meaty lower down now. I know it sounds stupid, but I am quite surprised just how much difference even small changes make.

Phil

[CID]

Hello Phil,

Thanks for the PM.
I didn’t make progress, currently working on other car to get ready for Lemans Classic..

Interesting changes you made. I will also try it. I still have this hesitation at low revs.

But I was wondering what you used for vacuum advance curve?
Here you could improve acceleration and overcome hesitation at lower revs on WOT (I hope)

My plan is to run the car with a AFR on it and optimise the car + acc jets versus advance..
Did it already with other cars.

Now I only need time to do it...
And yes I'm quite satisfied with the 123 still.....

Curt..

[Pjr]

Curt,

Good to hear from you.

I have managed to erradicate the low down hesitation and in fact I now have quite a nice band of torque for pulling away. Tonight I will look at the present settings, and report back.

On the MAP table, i have zero advance except at points 30kp and 50kp wher I have put 12 for each instead of the default 10. I still have lots of popping on overrun and i think I can make big improvements here, but first I want to check the exhaust isnt leaking and ideally id like to find another 123 distributor on a Lotus 900 series and see what is on its MAP curve.

I have noted the data stamped on the Lucas distributor vacuum unit (advance begins at 1 inch mercury, peaks at 6 inches and is 12 degrees at the distributor - 24 at crank?) but I havnt been able to work out how this translates to the system the 123 uses. I have converted from inches of mercury to mm so that I can then convert to Kilopascals, but its not making much sense.

My fuel consumption is getting worse because I cant help flooring the throttle out of each bend now! Its made the car much more fun!

Good luck with all your other work for le mans...

Phil

[Pjr]

Curt,

Good to hear from you.

I have managed to erradicate the low down hesitation and in fact I now have quite a nice band of torque for pulling away. Tonight I will look at the present settings, and report back.

On the MAP table, i have zero advance except at points 30kp and 50kp wher I have put 12 for each instead of the default 10. I still have lots of popping on overrun and i think I can make big improvements here, but first I want to check the exhaust isnt leaking and ideally id like to find another 123 distributor on a Lotus 900 series and see what is on its MAP curve.

I have noted the data stamped on the Lucas distributor vacuum unit (advance begins at 1 inch mercury, peaks at 6 inches and is 12 degrees at the distributor - 24 at crank?) but I havnt been able to work out how this translates to the system the 123 uses. I have converted from inches of mercury to mm so that I can then convert to Kilopascals, but its not making much sense.

My fuel consumption is getting worse because I cant help flooring the throttle out of each bend now! Its made the car much more fun!

Good luck with all your other work for le mans...

Phil