Orsom Weels wrote:Funnily enough, I have already ordered Matt Vales book, he's a contributor on LotusElan.net, & I had tentatively asked asked for anyones Excel experiences on there before getting registered here, & he had pointed me in it's direction, so good to get some more recommendations for it.
Welcome Tim,
Don't judge the car from this book too much. There are some heavy faults in it, which could have been easily ironed out, if he only had used one (simple 1) of us for reading it, before going public. it seems to me, that he don't trust people, who have more experiences than himself. That said, sometimes it is better to proof things from ground, but then you have too choose the right sources... As elsewhere in life... and he failed. It's a pity, because chances were outrageous to do something really magic...
Well that's unexpected good news re fuel consumption, even for the auto. As said, my mileage is not high, so it's not a primary concern, but definitely another point in their favour
I know that carb condition can have quite an effect, my +2 had always been pretty good on fuel, but about 4 years ago, after it's winter hibernation, it didn't want to run quite as sweet as it always had. I went through everything & even had the carbs ultrasonically cleaned, but nothing made any difference. Eventually I gave in & fitted a brand new pair of carbs (Webber 40 dcoe's) & the transformation was incredible. Even sweeter than before & far better fuel economy than I had ever had. I've since found out that a drilling in one of the originals had become blocked & the only way to clear it was to remove the lead plugs, use a drill bit to clear the obstruction, & replace the lead plugs.
don.hasi, thanks for the heads up on the book, I must admit I never take one single source of info to be gospel, but you do kind of expect a specialist single topic book to be somewhere near.
Just had a few spare minutes to sit down with a coffee & thought I'd do a little more research, & google images led me to this, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1991-LOTUS-EX ... 2052076199
Does anyone know this car? It states at the bottom of the listing that it is relisted with new lower reserve, but I've searched through his completed listings & can't find a previous listing to get an idea of what it got bid up to or what the reserve might be.
I haven't contacted the seller yet, but it looks & sounds like it might be a possibility if the price is right? It sounds like it has some interesting history & there's a good early service history, but bugger all of any significance this century, & it sound like it hasn't done much for a few years, so probably needs some recommissioning/sorting, but that wouldn't necessarily put me off, I would want to go through any purchase thoroughly any way, as long as the work required is reflected in the price. The biggest put off for me is the colour, what is it with Excels for sale at the moment? They are nearly all red! Was it the most popular colour? Or is it that everyone is trying to get rid of their red ones? That said, I don't mind them in red, & colour would never be a deal breaker for me unless it was really outrageous, but I do think there are colours that perhaps suit them a bit better, in my eyes, any way.
Given that it's going to need some paint work & servicing/cam belt etc, but assuming the work claimed carried out is genuine, what would be a ball park value for such a car? I've got a figure in mind, but I'd like to hear your thoughts .
The first one looks well looked after despite the paint peel (Car cover damage?). The engine bay looks original and in very good condition (the original red cam cover paint peeled off easily). The bonnet liner looks superb without coolant stains or sag which means commonly found water pump/rad leaks and subsequent head gasket issues are less likely. The trim/headlining looks very good too but needs a nose test.
Would be good to see the MOTS between 1999 and 2012 - I know 111,000 miles in 13 years is very unlikely for a cherished car like this example, but Excels are reliable which means 8,500pa is feasible. That said, the clutch can start to slip early between 40-50,000 miles for the reasons explained in a previous post so that may have discouraged a PO from driving too far and he/she could soon lose interest due to cost of garage replacement (£1500+) which could explain the low undocumented miles between 1999 and 2012.
Assuming a positive inspection (including a compression test - even better a boroscope inspection of the Nikasil liners) - as a very good original late example on original paint I'd value it in the region of £6000 +/- £1000 - the current paint issue nudging it back towards £5000.
Red looks fantastic combined with pristine later-style silver wheels if the paint is kept shiny and new -dull red/pinks are less attractive obviously. Apart from the paint (you might get away with a top-half respray), the red one is a much better long term bet than the older blue SA which has been messed with (engine bay/air filter mod is a bad sign in my view)
The money pit cliche will apply to nearly all cars. Doesnt matter what state the vehicle is in when you get one, you will generally start tinkering.
The SA is in the visibly poorer condition - new screen needed straight away. The air filters are not an issue for some but hated by others. Either way it is a relatively painless retrofit. Price for the SA is way high for the product I feel. It's been up for a while now with no movement, having come down from £4k but needs to go lower. You cant see the full interior condition or the underside.
The pinking red one is the more appeeling one ( ) You dont know the reserve price which has been lowered due to not selling at last sale entry. Normally people just try to push a bid to test the reserve price.
Re-price, the Marque is seriously under valued at the moment but it still remains in everyones mind as the cheap Lotus of the family. A similar dealer car is up for £8k and is sitting there for months with the great slogan " PRICED TO SELL ... BE QUICK !" . You dont need to be that quick
If you get a cheap half decent car you could easily lose £3-4k in to it with out thinking. Get a superb car for £2k more and have you spent £2k more or saved £2k? It depends how your glass sits!
Factor out any service items belts, tyres, brakes etc., as all cars need those. Physically view the car, your gut will tell you she's the one
For the second one (blue SA)I think you need to factor in a complete respray, at £6k, and screen at £300 (incl fitting) then head lining etc, so you'd have a car costing £10k if you do lots of the work yourself.
To help put that £3500 price in perspective compare it to this one at less than £3k (IIRC autos were less than manuals for second hand prices but that may have changed)
Yes, the red one need some work to the paint but you could strip off the lacquer and just re-do that (unless you do a temporary job with rattle cans) and appear to have a reasonable car for not much more than the price. I know which I'd be going for but then I do like Calypso pink Excels.
Hi all,
Agreed the blue SA doesn't look to be a good proposition at that price, but it aint red & if it was able to be bought for a good bit less
The red one however, did prick my interest. I would expect & desire to go through the mechanicals, just to satisfy myself if nothing else, not everybody's idea of 'good' matches mine The paint work doesn't phase me at all, I'm well used to tackling that sort of thing, a 20 year stint as a professional vehicle re-finisher has it's advantages
It seems the car was discussed on this very forum recently, http://www.lotusexcel.net/phpbb/viewtop ... f=2&t=9536 & there seems some doubt about the seats? Also interesting that Andy Graham has no records for it. I like the fact that it was a Lotus registered car, as so is my +2 & it wears a *CL registration as well. Silly I know, but I liked the connection
I have been watching the market a little, & have seen one or two that seem to be sitting around at the £7k-£9k mark, but wasn't sure if that was just the time of year. Given what needs doing, well, at least what we know needs doing, I had a figure of around £5k in my mind for the car in question, which is close to Peter K's ball park, does that sound reasonable to the rest of you? I suspect it will get bid to more, things go mad on ebay, or at least they do if I'm interested in them but we'll see. Anyway, I think I'm going to try to arrange a viewing & we'll see where we go from there. Any further tips as to known things to look out for will be much appreciated.
On the seats ..the fact that it is the next chassis number post the celebration 40 run then it makes sense that this car, in particular, reverts back to the original interior spec to preserve the exclusivity of the celebration run.
Later cars with celebration interiors could simply be a desperate push to sell Excels in a flagging market well past the origami era... Btw it's great that origami cars seem to be appreciated again going by the positive responses out on the road (big contrast to the fading rolly-poly era and we're beginning to see newer sharper designs once more).
Don't forget to check the hinge drop /door frame rot /elec window wind function. In the engine bay check if it has a Holburn or (likely) the later Saganaw PAS pump - the Holburn pump bracket works loose shearing the mounting bolts on the waterpump casting (pain to fix). The Saganaw bracket mounts to the lower exhaust side of the crankcase rather than the waterpump casting. Also check for PAS high pressure hose corrosion whilst you are down there - they're expensive!
Voting also for the red. As much as I hope that someone brave will rescue the blue one before some parts breakers will push it from the tarmac forever, but I have my problems with so called professionals who are suddenly not able to make clear pictures of the car to sell... I wouldn't mind the air filters (there are two parties on the board who like them and the others don't) but there are too much major jobs to do, that the blue one will cost 150% of the red regardless which price the red one will achieve
I would say, it is a question of taste: do you want an auto in a classic sports car ? Which colour do you like? Then go for the hunt.
I think there are much more than two air filter camps:
1) those that just like to stay OEM
2) those that know about the multitude of benefits a plenum air box brings for road cars and see the OEM system as a proper development solution
3) those that like induction roar and a racy look under the bonnet
4) those that want easy access to oil filter and dizzy and think the plenum system is an unnecessary encumbrance.
5) those that believe 3+4 = 10, or 11 or maybe 12?
6) those that have tuning issues and open K&Ns gave an answer but know the plenum system should be the better option
7) those that have tuning issues and think the plenum system was the problem
8.) those that bought the car like that and will get around to replacing the missing plenum but doesn't suspect the PO had tuning issues
9) those that bought the car like that and intend doing a resto including an engine rebuild in any case
10) those that always know best despite themselves
11) those that just like to win arguments
12) those that know best
.... lights blue touch paper and retires like a mischievous imp ...
I'm sure I've missed one or two points of view ...
Well I'm firmly in the "K&N's have their place, but it aint on a Lotus" camp I do have them on a couple of my old brit bikes, which didn't have air filters as std, & they are good. However, I think the plenum chamber is important on a road going Lotus, not least because of it's fire prevention qualities should the carb's spit back. I've seen more than one elan/+2 suffer fire damage when the K&N's have caught fire! That said, the lack of it is, I think, low on the importance list for the blue SA. I must confess I do like the Pacific blue & grey leather combination, & a part of me would love to save that car, but I'm not sure I want another restoration project at the moment, & I doubt I'd get it for the kind of price I would be happy to pay.
I've made an arrangement to look at the red one, & also sent a little enquiry to Andy at Lotus archives to see if he can shed any light on why he had no record of it's chassis number, so watch this space, as they say
If you do view the red car, could you please confirm the trim code from the sticker under the bonnet? Andy Graham wasn't sure which colour to mark it down as, just going from the photos.
Regarding the question above about the mileage, my own car covered over 130,000 miles in its first ten years. (Zero in its next ten, by the way!)
I am not really a fan of Lotus cars in red but having seen a few red Excels over the past year, I think they suit it very well.
OK, have been to see the car, & as is so often the case, there's a few things to sort out. The biggie for most I suspect, being the paint work. There is quite a bit of flaking lacquer, & whilst I except that I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to painting cars, I wouldn't be happy to do anything other than a complete re-spray, or at the very least, every thing above the waist line trim moulding. Fortunately that's one thing that isn't a big problem, or major expense for me
The passenger door hinge is seized & the pin is turning with the door & also has quite a bit of movement if the door is lifted at the rear, there is also quite a lot of draught coming in around that door when driving down the road. How much of a pain is the hinge to sort out?
The vendor, a very nice chap, by the way, says he was told the car had been stood unused from 1999 to when he acquired it, & he felt that was genuine. Looking at it, I would have to agree. Underneath, things have that kind of dry rusty patina that seems to afflict cars that have been stood up for a while, & on the road it had the 'feel' of a car that doesn't get used very much. The good news here is that the mileage is probably genuine, but if it's suddenly pressed into regular everyday service, I suspect some 'consumable' components like suspension bushes & the like, may soon need replacement.
I have to say the clutch felt a bit strange, the bite point was nice & low, & it did exactly what it was supposed to do, but, well, it just felt a bit strange, I don't know how else to describe it. I suppose it could be me not being used to the flexiplate flywheel? Maybe with regular use it would feel as normal to me as my Elan or +2?
There seems to be no other history other than the service book with the car, & no evidence or history of a cam belt change either, so that would have to go on the 'to do very soon' list.
Unsurprisingly, the air con doesn't work, there isn't even a belt to the pump, so what would be involved in rectifying this is anyone's guess.
The engine starts & runs well, with good oil pressure, & the general under bonnet appearance is really quite tidy & original.
Inside, the trim is in good sound condition, but could do with a good clean & valet. It has been kept in a garage so at least it wasn't damp & smelly, but I suspect that some work will be required to keep it that way if it is to live outside.
All in all then, with a bit of time & money putting into it, it ought to make a decent car. I have a golden rule which is to not buy the first one you see, always look at a few examples before making a decision, so with that in mind, I'm still watching to see if anything new comes on to the market & in the mean time will continue to follow this ones fortunes on ebay.
Just as an aside, my daughter was at a loose end & came with me to look at the car, & when we went for the test drive, she was shoved in the back. She is not far short of 6' tall, but said afterwards that the rear seat was one of the most comfortable she had ever been in, & she had plenty of room. She loved it, so well done Lotus for that, but now she's more keen than ever that we get an Excel!
Regards, Tim
PS, I did look at the trim code, but forgot to write it down. From memory, it was XX06?
If the pin is turning in the hinge mounts, it's seized in the beam. I'd budget for a door beam replacement as the "simpler" option, tbh. There's about the same amount of effort required in stripping the door to get to the seized pin as there is in replacing the whole beam with a known good one.
Seizure of the pin is usually an indication that the beam is turning into a doily anyway.
Is it possible to see if door beams &/or window frames are starting to rust without removal of the trim panel or other stripping down of the door? I did have a good look at what little of the beam is visible & it all looked & felt solid, but obviously I couldn't start taking the door apart
it seems to me, that he don't trust people, who have more experiences than himself. That said, sometimes it is better to proof things from ground, but then you have too choose the right sources... As elsewhere in life... 
That said, I don't mind them in red, & colour would never be a deal breaker for me unless it was really outrageous, but I do think there are colours that perhaps suit them a bit better, in my eyes, any way. 
.
Hail Mary Hail Mary blah blah 
The paint work doesn't phase me at all, I'm well used to tackling that sort of thing, a 20 year stint as a professional vehicle re-finisher has it's advantages 
but we'll see. Anyway, I think I'm going to try to arrange a viewing & we'll see where we go from there. Any further tips as to known things to look out for will be much appreciated.
