MSD Ignition Again Who Has Tried It

[StevenD57]

I don't know anything about the tuning software for the Wolf ECU so I don't know if it does a similar datalog analysis & autotune thing as the Megasquirt ECU and Tuner Studio software does. Since I had that ability, I was able to dial in pretty much everywhere except the wide open throttle area of the fuel map. This is the max rpm bits that are just not easily & safely done on public roads. For those areas of the fuel map I did take my car to a dyno shop. Otherwise the rest of the map was dialed in by just driving the car around in normal traffic with the wide band O2 sensor data being logged by the ECU.

Do you have a wide band O2 setup in the system? It is very difficult to tune a car with add-on EFI without this equipment. I.E. nearly impossible.

[MrCoolA]

Mmmmmm. Complicated questions. All i know at the present is it has O2 sensors and the system is programmable from within the cockpit. I think I need to read up and then come back and re ask

[tonypoll]

is it imperative to get the car once the EFI is fitted setup on a rolling road?

My simple answer is 'Yes'.
I know little of how to set up an engine, but I know the experts at Ford/Lotus etc spend months setting up a single engine configuration.
If just hooking up a wide-band AFR was all that's needed, why does it take the professionals so long to get it right? What don't I understand?
Could I do this myself, first time, to any degree of accuracy? Very, very unlikely. (Even though I'm quite well educated in the areas of engines and software).
Could I make a stab at getting it sorta right? Maybe - who knows?
However, if I go to someone with a rolling road, who has experience of these things (and perhaps experience of the specific engine and ECU+software I have fitted) then I have a good chance of getting something that's not too bad. Certainly not as good a set-up as if Lotus had spent months doing the installation, but hopefully not too shabby.
Else, in my case, I'd be continually thinking if I've got a reasonable set-up.

[MrCoolA]

The guys who will be fitting mine are very experienced with cars in general from vintage to modern, but i haven't really had a chance to talk through the installation at all yet, the guys i used to use with the rolling road McDonald Racing have as far as i know either sold up or blown up their rolling road( or if I remember correctly both) so was just trying to get a handle on if i need to start looking around for a suitable RR in the NE. on that subject has anyone got any ideas?? preferably North of Darlington

[Lotus-e-Clan]

I don't agree that a rolling road is necessary or indeed better than tuning it yourself IF you have an Wideband AFR logging unit (£200). The logging facility allows you to safely assess the data on a computer in the comfort of your armchair at home and WOT /FULL power tuning is also possible on the right road in the appropriate gear and at a safe speed. This is how I tuned my 1040cc twin DHLA mapped ignition Imp competition engine to give optimum torque with about 110 BHP @ 8200 rpm giving 50 mpg for normal road use (drops to 10 - 7 mpg on track days! ).

As our US friend Steven has already said, for FULL EFI the Megasquirt unit / software is so advanced these days that one can "autotune" the system via direct wideband data input...and that's the only reason I'd like EFI over my current carb set ups.

The problem with rolling roads and carbs is that it's only possible to tune it optimally for the conditions that prevail on the day. For example, whereas full EFI can compensate for seasonal variation in air intake temperature, the rolling road man in mid summer can optimise carb AFRs / power at high intake air temperatures (say 22 C) but come winter and zero degrees C and below, the AFRs will run much weaker for all operating conditions as there is no built in compensation...this is ESPECIALLY so at full power when air flow is greatest (and coldest) . Similarly if you rolling road it in winter, then come summer the AFRs will run richer. This is why in the old days, we used to have to change the intake direction to compensate for summer and winter driving.

OK, an experienced rolling road man can account for this somewhat and set a compromise AFR for road use....which TBH is not much better than an average DIY enthusiast's "near enough" attempts. However I agree that IF you are tuning a dedicated competition engine for summer months only, a rolling road set-up for that last 2 BHP and 5 Ibft is worthwhile as the variation in air intake temps will be much less than for summer AND winter use.

And the std Excel tune by Lotus is a compromise which errs on the RICH side to prevent damaging use during winter when the AFRs naturally are weaker especially @ WOT /full air flow. The downside of the compromise is relatively poor fuel economy. If Lotus could have compensated for the full range of air intake temperatures summer / winter then we'd have power with economy at all time of the year....this is also why you should keep the air box and trunking. position ....it's a key factor in the Lotus tuning compromise.

For the average Excel owner mapped ignition is the most cost effective upgrade giving the following over the old dizzy:

• Mapped = No ignition scatter - worn dizzies give different advance for each pair / each cylinder.
  Mapped = much fatter, reliable spark at ALL revs (variable dwell)
  Mapped = Direct twin coil wasted spark systems which have no HT king lead, no rotor arm gap to jump to dizzy cap electrodes and no mechanical advance curve (which also wears out) .

In summary Mapped =

• Reliable starting
  ROCK solid tickover ("Valley mapping" @ tickover rpm)
  More torque everywhere and better economy (accurate ignition timing)
  Easy to map out those niggling low rpm hesitations suffered in many worn out std dizzy systems.
  Some systems have "switchable ignition maps" for instant use with different fuel octanes, etc.

[StevenD57]

On a Lotus 900 series motor there are additional benefits. With the original distributor buried under the carbs it is a real pain to access. Since the distributor is no longer necessary with the crank-fired EDIS style ignition so never again will there be struggles to replace the cap and rotor. This removes those hard to access wear items that have to be periodically replaced. By removing wear items from the ignition circuit that have to be periodically replaced, the ignition system becomes more reliable and stays in top tune for longer stretches of time. Also when replacing a cam belt, the need to specially align the third gear on what is now just an oil pump drive is no longer necessary. This makes cam belt changes easier.

Speaking of the cam belt, because of it's very nature there is some slop and oscillations in the design. By taking the ignition timing signal away from the cam belt drive and moving it to an electronic pickup directly attached to the crankshaft gives a MUCH steadier ignition signal to run the timing from. I think this is why their is the smoothness increase I noticed on the highway. I think I am getting a smoother steadier signal for the ignition timing all the time but it is just more noticeable on the highway at steady speeds.

Last and most important you are removing a spark source from underneath the carbs. I don't know about in the UK and Europe with the Dellorto carbs but here in the US with the Zenith-Stromberg carbs there seems to be a high possibility of Lotus or Jensen-Healey cars having serious engine firs that destroy the car. Now I am not saying that this will cure all of that but I feel that removing one source of sparks from under the carbs is a GOOD thing.

[RRHANS]

I have been reading this thread with great interest.
My eye has fallen on the 123 ignition at a reasonable price of about 250£.

There is a new version which is programmable with your laptop via USB.
You can download their software for free and play with the possibilities (which I have done).

http://www.123ignition.nl/products.php?id=50&lang=eng

What can it do:

you can switch between 2 maps by placing 12v on a specific wire.
change advance curve at 10 different intervals.
change vacuum advance curve at 10 different intervals.
set the revlimiter.
variable dwell.
Installation seems very straight forward.

Drawbacks.

coil, cap & rotor


How I would install it.

Since 2 maps can be used I would add a coolant switch and use it to switch between a cold start map and a warm map.
This way I would simmulate the oem cold start advance.
With the warm map I could simmulate vacuum advance.

What is your opinion on this system.
Would it be interesting to enable vacuum advance or not?

[Lotus-e-Clan]

A couple of my Imp mates have the programmable 123 dizzy you describe.

The drawbacks are as you say...still have the inefficiencies of one coil, a king lead, cap, and rotor...and for the Imp boys the rev limiter is not settable above 8 krpm (Imps rev to 9.5 - 10 krpm).

The other drawback is the cost is too close to mappable ignition if you go via the Megajolt route, with EDIS stuff sourced from a breakers yard. And as US Steven has said, you still have the dizzy under carbs driven by the oil pump and belt drive. And unlike mapped ignition the dizzy bearings will eventually wear which will have some impact on ignition accuracy, although I believe they are fairly well engineered.

I recall there is a facility for an integrated vacuum advance map on the 123 dizzy...you don't have to use the 2nd switchable map for that...but the 2nd map may be useful for a more advanced cold start as you say, or different octanes.

[fitz]

hmm I think megajolt might be a good spring project for me . Anyone know if you can run the megasquirt in an ignition only mode so that i'd have the option to go fuel injected later on if i wish? I know I can with a canems ecu.

Also the megajolt info for the v4 edition has an analogue input that can be used to control the map, presumably I could use a coolant sensor to replace the thermal valve on the excel's inlet manifold?

[StevenD57]

hmm I think megajolt might be a good spring project for me . Anyone know if you can run the megasquirt in an ignition only mode so that i'd have the option to go fuel injected later on if i wish? I know I can with a canems ecu.

Also the megajolt info for the v4 edition has an analogue input that can be used to control the map, presumably I could use a coolant sensor to replace the thermal valve on the excel's inlet manifold?

Yes, the Megasquirt works just fine in ignition only mode. That is how I ran my car when I did the first step of my conversion. As I said I started by converting just the ignition using the Megasquirt. Next I added some of the extra sensors and then last major step was the actual EFI intake and high pressure fuel system stuff.

[lotushiast]

Hello,

i think Microsquirt is a good thing.
It is very small, watertight so you can bolt it instead of the original amplifier,
has 2 ignition drivers onboard so there is no need of Edis and has all the compenstion features
of the Megasquirt MS2.
Just my two cents.

Regards Harald.

[Richy B]

The guys who will be fitting mine are very experienced with cars in general from vintage to modern, but i haven't really had a chance to talk through the installation at all yet, the guys i used to use with the rolling road McDonald Racing have as far as i know either sold up or blown up their rolling road( or if I remember correctly both) so was just trying to get a handle on if i need to start looking around for a suitable RR in the NE. on that subject has anyone got any ideas?? preferably North of Darlington

Closest one I can think of is Turbo PACs in Gilesgate, Durham.

They have a RR dyno which they use to program ECUs

http://www.turbopacs.com/Rolling-Road-Dyno-_qs_9.html

[MrCoolA]

The guys who will be fitting mine are very experienced with cars in general from vintage to modern, but i haven't really had a chance to talk through the installation at all yet, the guys i used to use with the rolling road McDonald Racing have as far as i know either sold up or blown up their rolling road( or if I remember correctly both) so was just trying to get a handle on if i need to start looking around for a suitable RR in the NE. on that subject has anyone got any ideas?? preferably North of Darlington

Closest one I can think of is Turbo PACs in Gilesgate, Durham.

They have a RR dyno which they use to program ECUs

http://www.turbopacs.com/Rolling-Road-Dyno-_qs_9.html

Thanks Richy