Hi
A (recent) ex-owner I'm afraid (Matt Debbage has my old car) but I still look at the forum out of interest. As for door frames, I know somebody who has been in the engineering business for a fair old while and years ago I asked him about making new frames. Now don't take this as gospel since it was a few years ago and the economics of production might well have altered since but he reckoned a run of around 5000 would be needed before any manufacturer would look at them. He suggested instead of metal why not consider plastic since this was far cheaper to extrude and could be made just as stiff as the metal originals and could be self-coloured as well.
Just my own experience- it's a pity Lotus didn't stick with chrome over brass as on the early elans.
regards
John
[Mod note - split off into a new thread as it doesn't answer the question asked in the original Window Frame thread but is still an interesting idea]
Alternative window frame idea.
Moderator: Board Moderators
- amarshall
- Moderator
- Posts: 8296
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 18:09
- Model: SE
- Colour: Monaco White
- Year: 1990
- Location: Darlington
- Contact:
Re: Alternative window frame idea.
Mike's idea of scale for metal frames is measured in the tens to hundreds rather than thousands.
https://www.lotusexcel.co.uk/
SORN - just say NO!
SORN - just say NO!
-
- Senior Poster
- Posts: 2198
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 20:01
- Model: SE x2 + Celebration x2
- Colour: Gold,blue and green
- Year: 1987
- Location: Norwich
Re: Alternative window frame idea.
I'd probably be up for a set.
And i can see both sides of the production scale discussion, but we just have to allow for the fact that initial design and toling costs go into the budgeted production run, the more expected to be required the more that cost is spread over, but it's stil only fair to Mike that a realistic (possibly even conservative) estimate is achieved.
I guess from the post the other day on number of cars still taxed in the UK it hints we are lokking at less than 200 cars EVER wanting them, so if we get anywhere near 50 that would be a miracle. If Mike goes ahed then that's fantastic news, so I hope he does.
And i can see both sides of the production scale discussion, but we just have to allow for the fact that initial design and toling costs go into the budgeted production run, the more expected to be required the more that cost is spread over, but it's stil only fair to Mike that a realistic (possibly even conservative) estimate is achieved.
I guess from the post the other day on number of cars still taxed in the UK it hints we are lokking at less than 200 cars EVER wanting them, so if we get anywhere near 50 that would be a miracle. If Mike goes ahed then that's fantastic news, so I hope he does.
- amarshall
- Moderator
- Posts: 8296
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 18:09
- Model: SE
- Colour: Monaco White
- Year: 1990
- Location: Darlington
- Contact:
Re: Alternative window frame idea.
Could you add that to this thread please ? : http://www.lotusexcel.net/phpbb/viewtop ... f=7&t=5092AndyC wrote:I'd probably be up for a set.
https://www.lotusexcel.co.uk/
SORN - just say NO!
SORN - just say NO!
- rbgosling
- Senior Poster
- Posts: 1969
- Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 22:55
- Model: Lotus Excel SE
- Colour: Midnight Blue
- Year: 1990
- Location: Rugby
Re: Alternative window frame idea.
Really - plastic could be made as stiff as metal? Without making it a great deal thicker? This does surprise me.worzel4u wrote: ...He suggested instead of metal why not consider plastic since this was far cheaper to extrude and could be made just as stiff as the metal originals ...
Actually, that's an issue even with Aluminium. Steel is about 2.5x as stiff as aluminium (assuming the same thickness). My window frames already flex away from the body allowing a draught (and more annoyingly a wind noise) above a certain speed which I won't discuss in public, particularly if it's windy. Unless the material is made substantially thicker, I worry that aluminium frames will be much more prone to this.
Richard & Lilith
"Farmer" Richard
1990 Lotus Excel SE (Lilith)
2022 MG MG5 EV (not due to be a classic for quite a few years...)
2011 Nissan Leaf (Ragly - EV pioneer, must be due to be a classic one day)
1990 Lotus Excel SE (Lilith)
2022 MG MG5 EV (not due to be a classic for quite a few years...)
2011 Nissan Leaf (Ragly - EV pioneer, must be due to be a classic one day)
Re: Alternative window frame idea.
Hi
I'm not suggesting that these would be exact copies- my engineering friend suggested that the profiles would probably have to differ from the originals and instead of being "H" in cross section would need a different sectional type but he couldn't see why they wouldn't be any less stiff than the originals once mounted in the door. OK might not suit the purists but at least the cars would be on the road. Plastic technology has made pretty significant advances.
Regards
John
I'm not suggesting that these would be exact copies- my engineering friend suggested that the profiles would probably have to differ from the originals and instead of being "H" in cross section would need a different sectional type but he couldn't see why they wouldn't be any less stiff than the originals once mounted in the door. OK might not suit the purists but at least the cars would be on the road. Plastic technology has made pretty significant advances.
Regards
John
-
- Senior Poster
- Posts: 524
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:43
- Model: EXCEL SE
- Colour: CALYPSO RED
- Year: 1986
- Location: Kortrijk-Brugge-Saint Valéry sur Somme
Re: Alternative window frame idea.
Aluminum would not be a problem as long as you make the "crossmember" of the H 3 mm thick instead of 1mm, these will be stiffer then the originals and retain the original look. I will measure up the original cross-section and see if a standard profille would be suitable.
Hans
Lotus Excel SE full leather, aircon, 16" Konig rewind, twin 104 cam's
Triumph TR6 CR 11/1, fast road 89, roller rockers, pulse header, Overdrive
Ferrari Mondial Cabriolet 3.2 quatrovalvole
Range Rover Sport HSE luxury
Mini clubman Hampton
Lotus Excel SE full leather, aircon, 16" Konig rewind, twin 104 cam's
Triumph TR6 CR 11/1, fast road 89, roller rockers, pulse header, Overdrive
Ferrari Mondial Cabriolet 3.2 quatrovalvole
Range Rover Sport HSE luxury
Mini clubman Hampton
-
- Senior Poster
- Posts: 524
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:43
- Model: EXCEL SE
- Colour: CALYPSO RED
- Year: 1986
- Location: Kortrijk-Brugge-Saint Valéry sur Somme
Re: Alternative window frame idea.
I might have found someone that could have a suiting mold for extruding the H profile we need.
Does anyone know the cross section dimensions of the window runners?
This is the company.
http://www.argylein.com/extruded_shapes ... -Thickness
there are two profiles of interest.
The second one (19mm high 19 mm wide and 3mm thick).
It would have the same look as the original but I am not sure if the channel would be wide enough to accomodate the window runners.
The fourth one (25mm high, 20 mm wide and 3mm thick).
I think these would be the best, and I am pretty sure the window runners would fit.
The only drawback would be that he frame would look fatter.
Window runners would have to be glued in.
As for strength 3mm should do the job, the original is an H of about 0.8 mm thickness with rolled steel over the edges.
This means the frame would theoreticly be about 50% stiffer then original.
Does anyone know the cross section dimensions of the window runners?
This is the company.
http://www.argylein.com/extruded_shapes ... -Thickness
there are two profiles of interest.
The second one (19mm high 19 mm wide and 3mm thick).
It would have the same look as the original but I am not sure if the channel would be wide enough to accomodate the window runners.
The fourth one (25mm high, 20 mm wide and 3mm thick).
I think these would be the best, and I am pretty sure the window runners would fit.
The only drawback would be that he frame would look fatter.
Window runners would have to be glued in.
As for strength 3mm should do the job, the original is an H of about 0.8 mm thickness with rolled steel over the edges.
This means the frame would theoreticly be about 50% stiffer then original.
Hans
Lotus Excel SE full leather, aircon, 16" Konig rewind, twin 104 cam's
Triumph TR6 CR 11/1, fast road 89, roller rockers, pulse header, Overdrive
Ferrari Mondial Cabriolet 3.2 quatrovalvole
Range Rover Sport HSE luxury
Mini clubman Hampton
Lotus Excel SE full leather, aircon, 16" Konig rewind, twin 104 cam's
Triumph TR6 CR 11/1, fast road 89, roller rockers, pulse header, Overdrive
Ferrari Mondial Cabriolet 3.2 quatrovalvole
Range Rover Sport HSE luxury
Mini clubman Hampton
-
- Senior Poster
- Posts: 520
- Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 18:51
- Model: Elite S2.2
- Colour: Lotus Yellow
- Year: 1982
Re: Alternative window frame idea.
..........from my past experience working in manufacturing - i dont think in todays market finding the right size or shape profile will be the problem. i would suggest the biggest problem will be finding someone who is willing and able to make such small quantites. the main issue will revolve around making the frame and with the correct curve or 'tumblehome' ? to be acceptably priced in small quantities is gonna be an issue i would think in any material steel, alloy etc. best save the frames you have? not meaning to state the obvious. DC.